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TOPIC: What's in a Name

What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5859

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
As a Business Software Development Language X# is on track to becoming not only the best software of its class, but also by maintaining focus, the easiest, future-proof, package to use.
Unfortunately, the name itself carries no such connotations.
Is it time for a name change?
Terry

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What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5860

  robert's Avatar robert Offline Posts: 1048
Terry,
Changing a name is usually not a good idea, unless the new name is much better.
What did you have in mind ?

Robert
XSharp Development Team
The Netherlands
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What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5861

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Robert,
I leave the exact name, if there is a better one, open to discussion. But my thinking goes along the following lines:

X implies XBase – may not be meaningful to (younger) newcomers. (XSharp is the future)
# is sharp and potential users will probably look directly at C#.

Something with “Business” and “Simplified” in the name. Perhaps it’s just a marketing point – but may make it easier to “sell” to those who pull the purse strings in organisations which do not have their own dedicated IT depts.

“Straightforward Business Sharp” perhaps does not have the right “ring” about it, but it conveys the message.

Terry

And one more candidate name: Roslyn For Business

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Last edit: by Terry. Reason: A bit more thought

What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5862

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 521
I personally think X# is just the right name. It is the perfect combination of C#, which is considered the most general modern language, and it also shows the connection to supporting the xBase world. Don't change it I'd say....

Dick

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What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5863

  Karl-Heinz's Avatar Karl-Heinz Offline Posts: 303
HI Terry,

It´s not a good idea to change brand names, especially if they are already well chosen and introduced. "X" means Xbase-dialect and no matter how it´s named, if somebody doesn´t like the Xbase dialect he doesn´t use X#, so what

Almost forgot to mention the real big difference: "c#" is also a musical note, but "x#" not ;-)

regards
Karl-Heinz

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What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5864

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Hi All

Guess it was a bad idea. :(

Terry

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What's in a Name 11 months 4 days ago #5865

  wriedmann's Avatar wriedmann Offline Posts: 1631
Hi all,

personally I don't think the name should be changed - but maybe an attribute could be added, like "Xbase for .NET".

The term "xBase" IMHO is very important because it is the language itself.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
Meran, South Tyrol, Italy
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www.riedmann.it - docs.xsharp.it

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What's in a Name 11 months 6 hours ago #5913

  PaulB's Avatar PaulB Offline Posts: 15
When I first saw the same, I was very impressed and a bit excited. Just the name gave me confidence, and got me interested. Seems very modern and new which xSharp is, yet also remembers its roots.

Think its a home run.


Cheers,

Paul

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5916

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Hi Paul

Yes – I do see your take on it.

For some long time now I have been using C#. For even longer I have been very conscious of the difficulties, challenges and consequent time needed to learn the complex tasks associated with the development of Business-targeted applications.

I also remember the number of good, sometimes even brilliant, ideas I have had with respect to coding things up. The sad fact however, is that most of these ideas have morphed into very bad ones: some have morphed bad quickly so can be forgotten. Some have morphed not so quickly but before any real damage. But some, seeming both good initially and for a longer period have been used as a basis for an application which has grown to a point where that basis itself limits further development. (“if only I’d known that at the start”).

You may not be surprised, therefore, that my thinking has concentrated on two basic factors:

How can we make the learning curve easier/more efficient?
How can we change things retrospectively from the start?

Taking the last point first: Any “Sharp” language, due to programable nature of the Roslyn based compiler, can potentially change initial concepts across the whole code base. This would negate any restrictions on future application growth both in breadth and detail.

But doing this is complex – and will take time and usage to learn and do. There is ample evidence to support this as we see more and more and bigger books on the market covering Roslyn.

Now for the second point: XSharp is far easier to use (for business apps), due to its narrower focus than say C#. A single module program can itself produce highly capable applications. The learning curve to multi-module (X-Sharp) apps is relatively modest, and subsequent progression to multi-module-multi-language apps, again, a relatively modest step.
So, rather than just a convenient tool for development, I see XSharp, for newcomers at any rate, as Spearheading the way of getting to grips with the development of Business Software.
None of this, to my mind, comes across in the name and, of course, each of us will “see” things in a different way.

Hope that makes a bit of sense.

Terry

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5917

  robert's Avatar robert Offline Posts: 1048
Terry,

To make it easier for people to start using X# we have started a Youtube Channel "XSharp Academy" . We are working on videos that demonstrate various language features but also on subjects such as migrating from VO to X#.
The first episode (which shows how to install X# and VS) is already available. More will follow shortly.
www.youtube.com/channel/UCFqLBMKPPxlN24xRxFGLiVA

Robert
XSharp Development Team
The Netherlands
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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5918

  PaulB's Avatar PaulB Offline Posts: 15
Terry, totally get your intentions and support them. The xSharp project is very impressive so far.

And yes having come from VO, not Vulcan, there are lots of road blocks (.NET and Microsoft classes learning curve). Also for me, the current reliance on Vulcan code is one of those road blocks and I hope that is dealt with very quickly.

Another addition could be a xSharp sample/standard app that calls code from a VO DLL.

Cheers,

Paul

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5919

  wriedmann's Avatar wriedmann Offline Posts: 1631
Hi Paul,

Another addition could be a xSharp sample/standard app that calls code from a VO DLL.


I don't this is possible if the VO DLL is not a COM DLL or has a C style interface.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
Meran, South Tyrol, Italy
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www.riedmann.it - docs.xsharp.it

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5920

  PaulB's Avatar PaulB Offline Posts: 15
Wolfgang,

Thanks for the clarification. Ahead of my Ski's a bit--thinking about transition strategies.


Paul

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5921

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Just what's needed - great.
Terry

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5922

  wriedmann's Avatar wriedmann Offline Posts: 1631
Hi Paul,

we have litterally tons of VO code, and we will try to move all applications that are in active development to X#, using the VO GUI classes. Some of these will be moved then to the WinForms based GUI classes.

New development will be made whenever possible, and for some functionality in our VO programs we are writing COM modules in X#. Our most important VO programs are using several of them.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
Meran, South Tyrol, Italy
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
www.riedmann.it - docs.xsharp.it

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Last edit: by wriedmann.

What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5923

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 521
Hello Terry,

Now for the second point: XSharp is far easier to use (for business apps), due to its narrower focus than say C#. A single module program can itself produce highly capable applications. The learning curve to multi-module (X-Sharp) apps is relatively modest, and subsequent progression to multi-module-multi-language apps, again, a relatively modest step.


You've absolutely got a point here. X# , as VO/Clipper/etc, is a breeze to use compared to C#. However, I think if people are used to C# actually will consider the name X# as a recommendation. Take for example Nick who recently wrote that he actually currently likes all those points which beginners -and many long time users alike- consider nasty complications, like curly brackets. And those unknown to the horrors of C# will probably also conclude that it must be a professional language because C# is after all used for programming some of the top technology software. Even though I don't like C# and often feel (after years of regular use) that the very design of C# slows me down (e.g. much more look ups needed) compared to all others languages I've used I do consider it the language which can do almost everything.

Dick

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What's in a Name 10 months 4 weeks ago #5924

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Hi Dick

Yes - I understand.

It reminds me too of the ADA Language, introduced by the DoD (I assume it's still in use) and made deliberately verbose with the aim of making things self-documenting.


Terry

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What's in a Name 10 months 3 weeks ago #5925

  softdevo@tiscali.it's Avatar softdevo@tiscali.it Offline Posts: 85
I think that X # is a good name, it immediately makes us understand what it is, a language that incorporates the advantages of the net language and the XBase family. I would not change it.

Danilo

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What's in a Name 10 months 3 weeks ago #5931

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 521
Hello Terry,

There are still things X# can't do and probably never will (UWP for example? ) but I think that X# is moving towards the capabilities of C# without the nasty habits of it.

A sample of such a nasty thing: this weekend I lost almost an hour trying to find out why I couldn't use SQLite. First part of the problem (outside that lost hour) was that I downloaded a working UWP solution targeting 16299 which I changed to target 14393 (Anniversary) so it would work on all Windows 10 Phones as well. But Microsoft.Data.Sqlite.Core didn't work and I could not download a NuGet package 1.x which would support 14393. Eventually I solved it thanks to Stackoverflow (see docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/dat...ess/sqlite-databases for future readers having the same problem).

But in the meantime I tried another compatible SQLLite NuGet package which kept giving "Are you missing an assembly reference error". And I had now idea why until I found out that the code was based on SQLite and the new package was called Sqlite. Or the other way around maybe....All because one or another idiot thought on designing C# it was a good idea to make keywords and namespaces case-sensitive.

Good X# isn't.

Dick

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Last edit: by ic2.

What's in a Name 10 months 3 weeks ago #5936

  Terry's Avatar Topic Author Terry Offline Posts: 128
Hi Dick
Yes – agree with what you say up to a point.

But the case sensitivity and squirlygigs of C#, you are either happy with or not, it is a subjective thing.

From my point of view they make understanding what is going on easier – trying to work things out through the verbosity of a different language only, IMO, adds to difficulty.

But there are two ways of looking at the relationship between C# and XSharp:

Firstly: as an alternative to ways of coding things.

Secondly: by considering C# to be at the hub of all .Net derived languages, with the languages themselves radiating outwards like the spokes on the wheel of a bicycle.
In the case of X# it’s spoke is radiating outwards towards easier use, business application focus and maybe business-type verbosity.

Of course, ease of use is not solely a feature of the language alone, it is very closely tied in to its’ users as they gain more experience in using it.

Looked at this second way, consideration of any direct competition between C# and XSharp is removed.

This change of direction is partly what motivated my original name-change suggestion in this thread, though I have to acknowledge that Wolfgang’s suggestion of using some attribute is much better.

Terry

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