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TOPIC: Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7

Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1610

  wriedmann's Avatar Topic Author wriedmann Away Posts: 1573
Hello,

the Windows 10 Creators update introduces .NET Framework 4.7:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2017/04/05/announcing-the-net-framework-4-7/

There are two news I find particularly interesting:
  • High DPI support for Windows Forms applications on Windows 10
  • Touch support for WPF applications on Windows 10

And there is a new search facility for the .NET framework:

https://docs.microsoft.com/dotnet/api

Wolfgang

P.S. this .NET framework API will be replace 4.6 on all supported platforms, so we can expect these functions also on Windows 7 and Windows 8.1
Wolfgang Riedmann
Meran, South Tyrol, Italy
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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1613

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 499
After my experience with Visual Studio 2017 which doesn't even finish installing - for many users including me I don't especially looking forward to the next W10 update.

Microsoft is not good in releasing (reasonably) trouble free products. Even after extensive test rounds (like the W10 Insiders Preview, these fail on very basic points. The VS errors I got can be found in the RC comments from November 2016. A half working Visual Studio 2017 is not a big problem; I de-installed it and still have a working VS 2015. But a half working W10 Creators Edition is a big problem. We all know what happened with the first Anniversary Edition - just search a bit on that.

I have disabled my Windows Update Process; a very effective way to postpone updates in every W10 version. I will not enable it again until after a few months. It will at least postpone the increased telemetry to Microsoft and the new advertisements (Adds in Explorer for example, which you can shut up with disabling ‘Show sync provider notifications’)

The current W10 releases surfaced another problem. Every major release has new SDK code. If I want to make a W10 app now to play music for example, the Anniversary version has more efficient way to do that than the version before. But if I would use that, it only works on the Anniversary version. Currently still 20% of W10 versions do not run the Anniversary version. Partly because of deliberately delaying it, partly because W10 simply doesn't update - the update process is as sloppy as the rest of the programming. When we create something using "classic' Windows programming, like an X# or C# program, it works back to Vista or maybe even XP. But with this policy W10 app development is very discouraging - you may very well end up with an app which half of the W10 users can't run. And above that W10's market share is still below that of XP.

Dick

The main change in the Anniversary Edition was that users can no longer get rid of the totally unnecessary Lock screen, yielding many likewise unnecessary clicks. None of the bugs and unpleasantries were solved. So I expect it will be the same with this Creators Update. If you don't use Cortana, Edge (but Firefox instead), the W10 Start menu (but the Classic Start menu instead) there's not much you will miss, except -no doubt- some nasty features, I expect more advertisements and pushing to use Microsoft products.

Sorry to spoil the party, but I think that postponing the Creators Edition as long as possible will be wiser than getting it today....

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Last edit: by ic2.

Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1614

  wriedmann's Avatar Topic Author wriedmann Away Posts: 1573
Hi Dick,

I have updated now most of the PCs in my office (I'm missing only one), and this update was faster and easier than the update to the Anniversary update.

If I look af back at the XP fiasco, I see the decision of Microsoft to keep Windows 10 up-to-date as a very good decision, and I think this decision will save a lot of money (at least in my customers range): no more need to change machines because of a OS upgrade.

Of course, Microsoft has to refine the upgrade, but they have learned from version to version, I think.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1617

  robert's Avatar robert Offline Posts: 1001
Dick,

I have also seen occasions where updates break things. With Ms, Apple even with X#. However my experience is that it usually better to update than to wait.
In most cases there is a good reason for an upgrade.

And I am glad that a new update has new SDK code. If Ms would not distribute the new SDK code then how would we be able to create apps that recognize and work with the new versions of the OS?

What I personally see as the wrong approach is the approach from Google and Samsung where old phones are not updated. Customers are left with an older phone with an older version of the OS() with known (security) issues.

Robert
XSharp Development Team
The Netherlands
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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1619

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 499
My experience is the opposite. The last and probably only time I had a PC virus is 5 years ago I think. The last time we had a problem (not on our PC obviously) with a Microsoft update was a week ago where a clients' very large spreadsheet suddenly hung on loading. We received the spreadsheet and the plan was to see if I could read it in Excel 2003. In the meantime Kees discovered that it was due to a MS update - a patch (manual download) was supplied in the meantime.

I think all Windows major updates brought problems costing me a lot of time - and I also think every major update version is worse in terms of user experience; I gave the lock screen as an example. Totally unnecessary so which Microsoft idiot orders the option to skip the lock screen to be deactivated one wonders? Unfortunately you can not receive safety updates only without unwanted Anniversary or Creators updates in which case I think I am better of at least postponing all updates as long as possible. Basically I have the same with Office: Office 2003 does not receive updates anymore but it's much better in almost every respect than Office 2016 which I also have on this PC. The only reason I keep 2016 installed is that I sometimes had issues with opening docx/xlsx files in 2003; no doubt caused by updates Office 2007+ versions causing this because it used to work fine.

When we solve bugs or make improvements I usually have an idea which clients benefit and inform them separately. I usually see that clients never update themselves although in our software it's an easy procedure and I think that as long as they don't need improvements or fixes it's fine.

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1620

  Phil Hepburn's Avatar Phil Hepburn Offline Posts: 742
Hi Robert, Wolfgang, Dick, and all,

Like Robert, I have a policy to always update / upgrade to the latest version - of anything, O/S and applications. I learned this from a session at DevFest (London) many years ago and have stuck with it since then. I may even have been listening to Robert, as he was always there in the Crowne Plaza, and always passed on good tips.

Anyway, this policy seems to serve me very well, just the odd glitch or two over time. Also I find that by reporting any issues back to the Third parties concerned, they usually listen and respond accordingly - YES, even Microsoft. Insiders have a way of reporting back to those who wish to hear.

However, my success also may have to do with some other good advice from years back, and that is for installs, let the installer 'have its head', let it do what it wishes to do, as far as folders and default paths etc. are concerned. This could be as much a part of my general success as keeping up to date!

Oh! and as far as 'Win10' is concerned I have platforms of Desktop, Laptop, and Tablet - all kept up to date - however Julie's Tablet is not registered as being part of the Insider programme, I just keep it up to date with general public release updates etc.

Now then, if anyone is interested, I am currently communicating with 'TechSmith' and Microsoft over a rare issue that arose a couple of days back. SnagIt (11, 12, or 13) do not work properly with Win 10 build 16170, and possibly the version Wolfgang was talking of very recently.

I will keep you posted on any progress, as at the moment I can't capture screen content, and/or see previous captured images. Which means I can't make my eNotes. BUT - all is already completed for Cologne, so no issues and problems there ;-0) Oh! and Snipping tool still works - but is not in the same league as SnagIt, which is quite brilliant. And using SnagIt was a good tip from Paul Piko, many years back.

So to summarise, I go with Robert - always keep up to date as much as possible, and as soon as possible.

I like the new Visual Studio installer from this point of view, as we all can get updates to the VS version we are using, much easier than before.

Regards to all,
Phil.

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1621

  wriedmann's Avatar Topic Author wriedmann Away Posts: 1573
Hi Phil,

the current production release of Windows 10 is 15063 - the Creators update.

Build 15070 AFAIK is the current release in the "fast ring" of the insiders builds.
I have used insider builds (on a test machine) before Windows 10 became ready to be prepared, but I would never use such a build on one of our production machines.

Snagit 10 works well on build 15063.

Regarding lost time: normally I start the montly updates only when I don't need my PC for at least 30 minutes, and for this major update is was the same: I started it before a longer break (I have upgraded the work PC of my wife/business partner this night, and when she needed to work with it today it was ready). It is all an issue of planning.... even in our small environment.

Wolfgang

P.S. I'm using a Google Nexus as mobile phone because they are upgraded for at least 3 years - so I'm one of the relatively few having Android 7.1.1 with patch level march 5, 2017, and for sure the next update will come in the next 2 weeks
Wolfgang Riedmann
Meran, South Tyrol, Italy
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Last edit: by wriedmann.

Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1622

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 499

Phil Hepburn wrote: Hi Robert, Wolfgang, Dick, and all,

Anyway, this policy seems to serve me very well, just the odd glitch or two over time.

I bet that not upgrading would have served you equally well but then without the odd glitches!

Also I find that by reporting any issues back to the Third parties concerned, they usually listen and respond accordingly - YES, even Microsoft. Insiders have a way of reporting back to those who wish to hear.


Interesting. The problems I find most annoying are still there. E.g. one which started with W10 and newer Windows Server versions: if you copy something using Explorer and the file already exists, the window asking you to confirm does not get focus - it is even totally invisible. Now I know of a copy action doesn't start that I actively have to search for that window but I wouldn't call that user friendly.

None of the issues I posted in Windows Insider have been addressed; even straight complaints about the 10 included Action Pack incidents which are always closed because the department receiving it always says they are the wrong department for it- have never been answered. So I stopped reporting.

I like the new Visual Studio installer from this point of view, as we all can get updates to the VS version we are using, much easier than before.


Yes I like it too. If it would have worked I would even have liked it better!

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Last edit: by ic2.

Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1624

  Phil Hepburn's Avatar Phil Hepburn Offline Posts: 742
Hi Wolfgang,

In that case it is versions after 15063 which suddenly caused Snagit to go wrong.

My reports have gone in to TechSmith and Microsoft.

Because I am not tied to customers demands on a daily basis any more, I can afford myself the luxury of the Fast Insider track, and trying to get any issues put right before MS publically release a new version. After all, if nobody finds and reports the issues, then they will creep into public versions. I bet a few of you guys expect you users to report back (immediately?) any problems they have with your software ;-0)

Oh! and don't tell me that your software does not have any issues, ever !

My 3.5 cents worth,
phil.

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1626

  wriedmann's Avatar Topic Author wriedmann Away Posts: 1573
Hi Phil,

Because I am not tied to customers demands on a daily basis any more, I can afford myself the luxury of the Fast Insider track, and trying to get any issues put right before MS publically release a new version. After all, if nobody finds and reports the issues, then they will creep into public versions.


of course! But since I have not the time for it, I have decided to not use Insider builds anymore.

Oh! and don't tell me that your software does not have any issues, ever !


I would say more likely that a software without any issue is not possible (at least I say that to all my customers) - and if no issue is known, the it is because nobody has found anyone, and not because there are no issues at all.

I don't know many professions where such a small error like a dot instead of a comma can have cause such catastrophic errors like in programming.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1627

  FFF's Avatar FFF Away Posts: 577

Dick wrote: ...E.g. one which started with W10 and newer Windows Server versions: if you copy something using Explorer and the file already exists, the window asking you to confirm does not get focus - it is even totally invisible. Now I know of a copy action doesn't start that I actively have to search for that window but I wouldn't call that user friendly.

FWIW, this particular nuisance is older than W10 - in XP i'm sure it was not there, and as i skipped Vista, i think it crept in with W7. Any case, it was in 8 as it is in 8.1.
And yes, it is a shame, that noone lifted a finger to cure this.

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1628

  Phil Hepburn's Avatar Phil Hepburn Offline Posts: 742
Okay then Wolfgang,

I have acted on your useful information and rolled back the Windows 10 install to the Creator version/build and now my newly purchased 'SnagIt 13' works just fine ;-0)

However, I have given both Microsoft and TechSmith a heads-up by informing them of this issue.

Now I will go off and update my Visual Studio copies once again - had done them previously this morning ;-0((

Thanks for listening and providing knowledgeable support.

Here is my first tentative screen capture with version 13 :-



The mouse pointer shows a 'Fail' but this actually was done today as an uninstall, or recovery to the previous build.

Cheers,
Phil.
Attachments:

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1629

  Chris's Avatar Chris Away Posts: 1181
Hi Karl,

Well, this doesn't happen on Win7 SP1 at least. It must have been introduced in a later update :-)

Chris
XSharp Development Team
chris(at)xsharp.eu

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1630

  FFF's Avatar FFF Away Posts: 577
Could be - it's so long since i installed W8, lost count of years ;)But it was and is a nuisance, which should be healed...

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1631

  Phil Hepburn's Avatar Phil Hepburn Offline Posts: 742
Whoops! - should have realised, there was no need to re-update VS 2017 as this was preserved as before I went backwards.

The only thing I had to do was re-populate the tabs in my instances of Edge (the browser). But then these always get cleared when going forwards in versions, never mind backwards.

And newer versions of Edge are always included as part of the Win 10 upgrade.

Seems 100% okay at the moment.

Will keep you in touch.
Regards,
Phil.

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1632

  Chris's Avatar Chris Away Posts: 1181
Hi Karl,

Yes, agreed of course! Although I just realized that maybe I am not seeing this problem because I use Classic Shell..

Chris
XSharp Development Team
chris(at)xsharp.eu

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1634

  ic2's Avatar ic2 Offline Posts: 499
Hello Chris, Karl,

I use Classic Shell too, also on the servers where I found this "focus-on-copy" problem. I am pretty sure that I first saw the problem when 2 clients went from Server 2003 to Server 2012 (located in a cloud park) and somewhere during the W10 usage, so not even from the beginning.

Dick

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1640

  FFF's Avatar FFF Away Posts: 577
Dick, Chris,
tres faciunt collegium ;)
Classic shell here, of course...
But i meant the problem is not limited to focus on copy etc. Since the break(-ing change), Windows opens "sometimes" dialogs with strange z-ordering (usually hind-most), and, iirc, not always such a dialog gets "mirrored" in the taskbar, so one can't CTRL-Tab to reach it. Usually you notice it only, because the spawning app seems to be unresponsive...

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Windows 10 Creators Update introduces .NET 4.7 2 years 2 months ago #1642

  wriedmann's Avatar Topic Author wriedmann Away Posts: 1573
Hi,

maybe I'm stupid, but I haven't noted nothing strange.... I'm not using Classic Shell (never used it), and I have used Windows 8/8.1 only on some touch devices. On my main development notebook I have upgraded from Windows 7 to 10 (or better, I have changed my Windows 7 notebook with a new one where I installed Windows 10 directly).

And I copy files very often.... and like the new copy dialog very much.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Riedmann
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